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Playing, mysterious sharpness stumps me..
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3013		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Vivian [ Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:28 pm ]
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Hello All,

I haven't posted in a long while. I have been lurking lately; so much going on here! Following this forum is a full time job. I'm glad to see such a vibrant community - wish I could participate more.

I am stumped by a problem with a guitar. It's an electric (Parker Fly). Here's the story:
the guitar was set up at the factory with .009 strings. I played it some with those strings (very old, very dead) and barre chords up the neck sounded yucky. I changed strings, put a set of .010's on it and it didn't seem that there was any string binding in the nut slots - that is, it didn't seem that the nut slots needed to be widened. So with the new strings on it I also adjusted the intonation at the bridge/saddles, got it pretty good with my average-grade digital tuner. However, barre chords still sound terrible. Further inspection reveals, for example: the intonation checked at the 12th fret is right on; then I fret the C# with my index finger on the G string at the 6th fret, and the note is pretty much on target. BUT THEN when I play a barre chord (E shape at the 5th fret = A chord) the C# note is WAY sharp. I straighten the neck, reducing the relief = no difference. Very puzzling and very frustrating to me.   

If any of you have any ideas about what might be going on I am very eager to hear them!

Thanks for your time in reading this post and your efforts in helping me with this conundrum!

Best wishes,
Viv
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:43 pm ]
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Hi Vivian,

Is the C# note way sharp in relation to the other notes of the chord, or way sharp when reading it on the tuner? If you're think the intonation is good, finger the c# note by itself, and then add each finger of the chord one at a time and see when/how the c# changes.

John
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:04 pm ]
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You might check the intonnation with chime and fretting at the 19th fret, the acid test for correct bridge location, and if that is good I would get a fretrule and check each fret position to make sure they are in their propper place and if they are then I would change strings again. Sometimes, you know, even new strings can be a little funky.

I feel yo pain, I hate intonnation problems

John
Author:  Colin S [ Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:34 pm ]
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Before you try something too drastic, try tuning using this method, it's the one I use and gives a more even temper.

1. Tune 1st E to reference tone or tuner.

2. Tune 6th E to first using harmonic at 5th fret of 6th string. (octave harmonic)

3. Fret the string at 7th fret and tune to first. (octave)

4. Fret 4th string at 2nd fret and tune to 1st string. (octave)

5. Fret 3rd string at 9th fret and tune to 1st string.

6. Fret 2nd at 5th fret and tune to 1st string.

You can often use a digital tuner to tune all the strings, it should show tuning for 1st E for each string.

All the strings are tuned to fretted strings (Except 6th) to the same note and contain the same out of tuneness specified buy an even temper. You should find that you don't get the annoying tuning problems with the 2nd and 3rd strings that can be really irritating up the neck. The major third interval (which is what G to B is) carries the largest adjustment.

Colin
Colin S38592.3581828704
Author:  Mjoy [ Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:42 am ]
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The tempered tuning will help a bit.

How tall are your frets?

I worked as a repairman in the largest music store in D.C. for about 15 years and this is a problem I often encountered.

When you form an A chord as you described, the C# is played by the middle, the strongest on your hand. With tall frets, it is quite easy to pull a note a 1/4 tone sharp pushing straight down on the string, even a .016 'G'. If you pull a little towards the ground (across the fretboard) the sharpness will also be compounded; this is a tendency I have often seen.

Understand that I don't mean to slight your expertise or experience as a player in any way; I have no idea about that and apologize if I have offended you in any way. I have encountered this problem with very accomplished players who changed instruments or installed taller frets and had to adjust the way they approached the instrument.

If the intonation is correct, the strings are new and the guitar is otherwise in correct adjustment, the only possible causes of your problem ar grossly mis-placed frets (possible, but unlikely in a quality instrument) or technique that is not quite adjusted to the instrument in question. Mjoy38592.6551157407
Author:  Don Williams [ Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:52 am ]
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I have no idea, but I'm almost to 1000 posts, so I figured I would say something. Or was it "nothing"? Oh well, nevermind.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:24 pm ]
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You might want to try back filing the nut so the string comes off the nut as far forward as possible. By forward I mean towards the fret board. If that doesn't work...I'd just make it fly...into the wall! Just kiding! I don't think it's a bad fret because the rest of your strings are in tune to each other at the fifth/sixth fret...you said only the third string is off. If the slot was cut crooked you would have problems on more than one string. Check and make sure the other frets are in tune to each other. Unless the fret is crooked/kinked/jogged at that string spot only...which is highly unlikely, it's not the fret . A lot of manufacturers don't properly back file their nuts. The strings intonation point should begin exactly at the edge of the nut not somewhere/anywhere else. Also I have had many times a bad string, even several, because they all came from the same run. Buzz Feiten did a study on strings, on the consistancy issue... D'addario's won hands down. Dave-SKG38593.3518171296
Author:  Vivian [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:54 am ]
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Hi John E, John K, Colin, Mark, Don, and Dave,

Thanks to all of you for your help! It turns out that some of the other
strings are sharp when I play that barre chord as well. I had an expert
local guitar builder friend of mine (who also has a Parker Fly) look at it
last night. He said the intonation is fine and all the frets are well located.
Yes, Mark, you were correct. My friend watched me play barre chords and
he said, "It's your technique!" - playing technique, that is. I am used to
lower frets and heavier strings on acoustic guitars so I guess I do a sort of
death grip. It may be harder to change my playing technique than it
would be to fix a nut or saddle. Oh well, just one more "growth
experience".   Thank you all again for your assistance.   

Best wishes,
Viv
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:22 pm ]
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Vivian,
That happens a lot more than you might think. All of us have lived with poorly made/intonated guitars where we have had to stretch a little here and there to make it play in tune. I do a lot of Buzz Feiten retro installs, so my customers are looking to improve the intonation on there instruments right? Well I can't tell you how many times I have re-intonated a guitar, put it in the players hand and he says..."it sounds out here". I look at his hands and he has the chord/strings all twisted and mangled. Bad habits are hard to break and good technique takes lots of practice. I am glad to hear it wasn't the parker...but still a good luthiery lesson all the same!
Author:  Matt Gage [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:46 pm ]
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Hey Viv,
you may want to keep going up in string guage, try some electric 11's or 12`s next, this might make the feel of the guitar a bit closer to what your used too.

I too am a death gripper and have a really hard time with light electric strings.

Rock On Viv!

Author:  John How [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:04 pm ]
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Way to go Don. Sorry Viv, I've not a clue either.
Author:  Mjoy [ Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:23 am ]
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I'm glad I was of some help. You'll find as you adjust your technique to a lighter touch that all other areas will benefit as well; timing, speed, fluidity of phrasing, etc. As in anything else, your body is not effecient when tight. Only use the muscles you need. It will also stave off carpel tunnel.

Kind of like building an instrument so that the only tension is from the strings and vibrations; then other manufactured tensions cannot interfere.
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